1 00:00:08,390 --> 00:00:06,550 [Music] 2 00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:08,400 welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:16,910 --> 00:00:11,200 the podcast from australia for science 4 00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:16,920 and reason 5 00:00:28,390 --> 00:00:25,589 yes it's the skeptic's own podcast 6 00:00:31,910 --> 00:00:28,400 episode number 632 7 00:00:33,350 --> 00:00:31,920 for the 22nd of november 2020. 8 00:00:35,990 --> 00:00:33,360 richard saunders coming to you from 9 00:00:38,470 --> 00:00:36,000 sydney australia ah let me have a look 10 00:00:40,310 --> 00:00:38,480 the sun is just about to rise up nice 11 00:00:42,630 --> 00:00:40,320 and early today 12 00:00:44,549 --> 00:00:42,640 i think i'll go for a nice 12 kilometer 13 00:00:47,670 --> 00:00:44,559 walk which has been my habit 14 00:00:48,549 --> 00:00:47,680 over the course of the pandemic and i've 15 00:00:50,950 --> 00:00:48,559 discovered 16 00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:50,960 what a good thing long walks are partly 17 00:00:53,670 --> 00:00:52,000 because 18 00:00:55,189 --> 00:00:53,680 i get to listen to lots of different 19 00:00:57,750 --> 00:00:55,199 podcasts more 20 00:00:59,349 --> 00:00:57,760 than i did before the pandemic and audio 21 00:01:01,510 --> 00:00:59,359 books and all sorts of things 22 00:01:03,910 --> 00:01:01,520 which reminds me right at the top of the 23 00:01:07,109 --> 00:01:03,920 show i will mention that the esp 24 00:01:08,710 --> 00:01:07,119 podcast are having a live show oh about 25 00:01:11,590 --> 00:01:08,720 this time next week anyway 26 00:01:12,230 --> 00:01:11,600 check out the european skeptics podcast 27 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:12,240 for more 28 00:01:15,990 --> 00:01:15,360 information so next weekend look out for 29 00:01:18,789 --> 00:01:16,000 that live 30 00:01:20,390 --> 00:01:18,799 podcast coming up on this week's show we 31 00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:20,400 talk about 32 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:23,520 the uh avalanche of news 33 00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:26,200 in the last week to do with so-called 34 00:01:31,109 --> 00:01:27,920 ex-celebrity chef pete 35 00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:31,119 evans who has been dumped left right and 36 00:01:35,109 --> 00:01:31,840 center by 37 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:35,119 sponsors and book deals and tv shows and 38 00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:36,640 all sorts of things 39 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:40,000 partly because of his bizarre 40 00:01:44,149 --> 00:01:42,320 claims about health well not really 41 00:01:45,670 --> 00:01:44,159 about his bizarre claims about health it 42 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:45,680 seems he could make all sorts of bizarre 43 00:01:49,670 --> 00:01:47,920 claims about health products and 44 00:01:51,670 --> 00:01:49,680 nonsense like that and still get away 45 00:01:55,109 --> 00:01:51,680 with it sort of 46 00:01:56,149 --> 00:01:55,119 but uh he finally went too far when he 47 00:02:00,230 --> 00:01:56,159 posted 48 00:02:03,990 --> 00:02:00,240 a comic a cartoon i should say a cartoon 49 00:02:06,709 --> 00:02:04,000 panel featuring a neo-nazi sign 50 00:02:08,550 --> 00:02:06,719 that was uh the straw that broke the 51 00:02:11,589 --> 00:02:08,560 camel's back as far as his 52 00:02:13,589 --> 00:02:11,599 public image went i think 53 00:02:16,070 --> 00:02:13,599 and don't forget pete evans is the only 54 00:02:16,710 --> 00:02:16,080 person in the history of the bent spoon 55 00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:16,720 award 56 00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:23,920 after we uh look at the latest 57 00:02:30,229 --> 00:02:27,200 after that look at pete evans and his 58 00:02:31,990 --> 00:02:30,239 week from hell we have logical fallacies 59 00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:32,000 with michelle bickersma 60 00:02:35,509 --> 00:02:33,360 and this week michelle's going to be 61 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:35,519 looking at the fallacy fallacy 62 00:02:38,790 --> 00:02:37,840 the fallacy fallacy that's an 63 00:02:41,030 --> 00:02:38,800 interesting one 64 00:02:42,790 --> 00:02:41,040 i'd never heard about this one before we 65 00:02:44,710 --> 00:02:42,800 started working on the segment so the 66 00:02:46,630 --> 00:02:44,720 fallacy fallacy coming up 67 00:02:48,229 --> 00:02:46,640 then we have news of our friend dr ken 68 00:02:51,910 --> 00:02:48,239 harvey and 69 00:02:54,630 --> 00:02:51,920 his uh stepping down from a position 70 00:02:57,190 --> 00:02:54,640 with a therapeutic goods administration 71 00:02:58,710 --> 00:02:57,200 over pure frustration and their 72 00:03:02,550 --> 00:02:58,720 inability 73 00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:02,560 or their apathy or their 74 00:03:09,589 --> 00:03:06,400 tardiness to really act on dodgy 75 00:03:12,070 --> 00:03:09,599 health claims in australia now this is 76 00:03:14,790 --> 00:03:12,080 the government agency responsible 77 00:03:16,390 --> 00:03:14,800 for well let's say issuing fines and 78 00:03:19,270 --> 00:03:16,400 warnings and things like that 79 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:19,280 against dodgy health products dr harvey 80 00:03:22,149 --> 00:03:21,360 and the skeptical community in general 81 00:03:26,309 --> 00:03:22,159 have long 82 00:03:30,309 --> 00:03:26,319 since been less than impressed 83 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:30,319 by the inactivity of this uh 84 00:03:33,750 --> 00:03:32,720 organization following that it's the 85 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:33,760 latest uh 86 00:03:38,550 --> 00:03:36,480 newsletter from australian skeptics find 87 00:03:39,110 --> 00:03:38,560 out what's going on in the skeptical 88 00:03:41,509 --> 00:03:39,120 world 89 00:03:43,430 --> 00:03:41,519 then to round off the show another trip 90 00:03:44,869 --> 00:03:43,440 into trove the online resource from the 91 00:03:46,149 --> 00:03:44,879 australian government and the national 92 00:03:50,470 --> 00:03:46,159 library of australia 93 00:03:52,630 --> 00:03:50,480 once more uh looking at another 94 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:52,640 another search to do with the australian 95 00:03:56,229 --> 00:03:54,480 skeptics and our friend tim mendom who 96 00:03:57,750 --> 00:03:56,239 gets a mention 97 00:04:00,390 --> 00:03:57,760 but now it's time for me to run 98 00:04:04,710 --> 00:04:00,400 downstairs run into the kitchen and 99 00:04:08,550 --> 00:04:04,720 uh cook up some wonderful veggie 100 00:04:10,229 --> 00:04:08,560 vegetables for tonight in fact during 101 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:10,239 this whole pandemic i've discovered the 102 00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:11,200 wonders of 103 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:13,760 cooking lovely veggies don't you agree 104 00:04:19,189 --> 00:04:15,840 my goodness made they're delicious 105 00:04:21,030 --> 00:04:19,199 and baked veggies yum yum yum 106 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:21,040 i've finally learned how to bake 107 00:04:24,550 --> 00:04:22,800 vegetables properly in the oven 108 00:04:26,070 --> 00:04:24,560 thank you internet thank you youtube 109 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:26,080 thank you to those thousands of people 110 00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:26,960 who post 111 00:04:33,510 --> 00:04:30,320 how to do everything mmm baked 112 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:33,520 vegetables with a little bit of sesame 113 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:35,120 oil 114 00:04:40,629 --> 00:04:38,160 some bit of salt i put chili flakes on 115 00:04:43,510 --> 00:04:40,639 because i put chili flakes on everything 116 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:43,520 and bake them roast them up until 117 00:04:49,830 --> 00:04:46,960 they're a bit crispy on the outside 118 00:05:01,130 --> 00:04:49,840 well i do that i hope you enjoy the 119 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:09,270 [Music] 120 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:11,350 now long-time listeners to the skeptic 121 00:05:16,550 --> 00:05:13,280 zone will recall 122 00:05:18,310 --> 00:05:16,560 the ongoing saga that is paleo pete 123 00:05:21,350 --> 00:05:18,320 evans the former tv chef 124 00:05:23,350 --> 00:05:21,360 who has now been dropped left right and 125 00:05:26,390 --> 00:05:23,360 center from various promotions 126 00:05:28,070 --> 00:05:26,400 he was involved with sponsorship deals 127 00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:28,080 book deals all sorts of things 128 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:30,160 television programs the list goes on and 129 00:05:34,150 --> 00:05:31,120 on and on 130 00:05:36,070 --> 00:05:34,160 now in 2015 pete evans 131 00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:36,080 came to our attention more or less for 132 00:05:41,830 --> 00:05:38,400 his promotion of the 133 00:05:42,310 --> 00:05:41,840 paleo diet and also his campaigns 134 00:05:44,909 --> 00:05:42,320 against 135 00:05:46,469 --> 00:05:44,919 fluidization his support for 136 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:46,479 anti-vaccination 137 00:05:52,950 --> 00:05:49,680 and his post discouraging the use of 138 00:05:54,070 --> 00:05:52,960 sun cream suntan lotion sunscreen that 139 00:05:55,510 --> 00:05:54,080 sort of thing 140 00:05:57,749 --> 00:05:55,520 now that's an old conspiracy i've come 141 00:06:00,469 --> 00:05:57,759 across that one before 142 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:00,479 where people say that there are micro 143 00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:01,840 particles in 144 00:06:06,790 --> 00:06:04,720 sunscreen you shouldn't use them in fact 145 00:06:08,870 --> 00:06:06,800 i was once doing a tv show many years 146 00:06:11,909 --> 00:06:08,880 ago and we were out in the sunshine 147 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:11,919 and one of the people involved in the tv 148 00:06:15,590 --> 00:06:14,800 show was um promoting this conspiracy 149 00:06:17,590 --> 00:06:15,600 theory 150 00:06:18,710 --> 00:06:17,600 and i stepped in and i stood up and i 151 00:06:21,029 --> 00:06:18,720 said looks 152 00:06:22,629 --> 00:06:21,039 i think everybody i think he should be 153 00:06:25,670 --> 00:06:22,639 wearing sunscreen on us 154 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:25,680 on such a hot day well pete evans 155 00:06:28,950 --> 00:06:27,520 has been bubbling along for some years 156 00:06:30,629 --> 00:06:28,960 with the same sort of conspiracy 157 00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:30,639 theories and 158 00:06:33,990 --> 00:06:32,880 strange beliefs but this year it's 159 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:34,000 really come 160 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:37,039 to the fore with covert 19 of course and 161 00:06:40,309 --> 00:06:39,280 in fact you may well recall that not so 162 00:06:42,950 --> 00:06:40,319 long ago 163 00:06:43,510 --> 00:06:42,960 only a matter of weeks ago pete evans 164 00:06:45,350 --> 00:06:43,520 won 165 00:06:47,510 --> 00:06:45,360 this year's benspoon award for the 166 00:06:50,469 --> 00:06:47,520 promotion of the pseudo-scientific 167 00:06:52,629 --> 00:06:50,479 non-medical biocharger and his 168 00:06:55,909 --> 00:06:52,639 continuing anti-vaccination 169 00:06:58,710 --> 00:06:55,919 position now the biocharger is this 170 00:07:00,790 --> 00:06:58,720 machine that looks like a blender and 171 00:07:03,029 --> 00:07:00,800 christmas lights all mixed up together 172 00:07:04,790 --> 00:07:03,039 and the idea is you put this in a room 173 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:04,800 you switch it on the lights flash and do 174 00:07:09,110 --> 00:07:06,960 what they have to do and it sends out 175 00:07:10,550 --> 00:07:09,120 and it sends out energies or frequencies 176 00:07:13,990 --> 00:07:10,560 that can manipulate 177 00:07:15,909 --> 00:07:14,000 biological organisms 178 00:07:17,270 --> 00:07:15,919 such as pathogens or whatever in your 179 00:07:19,589 --> 00:07:17,280 body it's 180 00:07:21,350 --> 00:07:19,599 it's beyond nonsense and in a time of 181 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:21,360 covet 19 when 182 00:07:25,029 --> 00:07:23,120 sadly hundreds of thousands of people 183 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:25,039 around the world are dying 184 00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:28,560 it is uh nothing you can take 185 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:30,560 with a grain of salt anymore it's deadly 186 00:07:33,749 --> 00:07:31,840 serious 187 00:07:35,670 --> 00:07:33,759 so to try and bring you up to speed as 188 00:07:37,189 --> 00:07:35,680 best i can because in the last week it's 189 00:07:40,309 --> 00:07:37,199 just getting ridiculous 190 00:07:41,909 --> 00:07:40,319 with this pete evans story i will read a 191 00:07:44,469 --> 00:07:41,919 few excerpts from 192 00:07:45,589 --> 00:07:44,479 media reports and newspapers and so on 193 00:07:48,790 --> 00:07:45,599 concerning 194 00:07:51,110 --> 00:07:48,800 this character and we begin with the 195 00:07:54,309 --> 00:07:51,120 sydney morning herald dated the 18th 196 00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:54,319 of november 2020 with the headline no 197 00:07:59,029 --> 00:07:55,280 longer good 198 00:08:02,710 --> 00:07:59,039 evans as sponsors run a mile 199 00:08:06,070 --> 00:08:02,720 and this is by carl quinn and brodie 200 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:06,080 carmody as many of pete evans 201 00:08:11,029 --> 00:08:08,560 lucrative media and sponsorship deals 202 00:08:11,830 --> 00:08:11,039 evaporated within the space of 24 hours 203 00:08:13,909 --> 00:08:11,840 this week 204 00:08:16,550 --> 00:08:13,919 it was easy to imagine it might have 205 00:08:18,710 --> 00:08:16,560 been the last we would see of a man 206 00:08:19,830 --> 00:08:18,720 who has morphed from mainstream 207 00:08:22,309 --> 00:08:19,840 television star 208 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:22,319 to polarizing diet health and lifestyle 209 00:08:26,469 --> 00:08:23,280 profit 210 00:08:29,270 --> 00:08:26,479 before our eyes i don't think 211 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:29,280 he has a place in public life in 212 00:08:31,830 --> 00:08:30,160 australia 213 00:08:33,589 --> 00:08:31,840 said jennifer hill founder of the 214 00:08:36,630 --> 00:08:33,599 feminist activist group 215 00:08:38,949 --> 00:08:36,640 mad effing witches and i'll let you use 216 00:08:41,430 --> 00:08:38,959 your imagination what effing means 217 00:08:43,269 --> 00:08:41,440 and one of the instigators of a swift 218 00:08:45,269 --> 00:08:43,279 and successful campaign against the 219 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:45,279 former my kitchen rules host 220 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:48,160 this week i think that disqualifies you 221 00:08:51,910 --> 00:08:49,360 from having a voice 222 00:08:52,710 --> 00:08:51,920 despite his increasingly controversial 223 00:08:55,590 --> 00:08:52,720 views 224 00:08:56,870 --> 00:08:55,600 evans was still a highly bankable brand 225 00:08:59,110 --> 00:08:56,880 until on monday 226 00:09:00,630 --> 00:08:59,120 he shared a cartoon image of a butterfly 227 00:09:03,750 --> 00:09:00,640 whose winged pattern 228 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:03,760 was in the form of a sununrad 229 00:09:07,990 --> 00:09:07,120 black sun an ancient norse symbol that 230 00:09:11,110 --> 00:09:08,000 has been 231 00:09:11,829 --> 00:09:11,120 appropriated by neo-nazis in recent 232 00:09:13,990 --> 00:09:11,839 years 233 00:09:15,670 --> 00:09:14,000 and a bit later on this article says 234 00:09:17,990 --> 00:09:15,680 evans did not respond 235 00:09:19,829 --> 00:09:18,000 to requests for a comment late yesterday 236 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:19,839 he posted a video on facebook in 237 00:09:22,790 --> 00:09:22,560 response to media reports the fact that 238 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:22,800 i 239 00:09:41,590 --> 00:09:38,240 news report goes on to tell us that 240 00:09:43,590 --> 00:09:41,600 uh pete evans has been dumped from a 241 00:09:45,990 --> 00:09:43,600 show that's going to go in production 242 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:46,000 in january called i'm a celebrity get me 243 00:09:48,710 --> 00:09:47,120 out of here 244 00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:48,720 and if you don't know what that show is 245 00:09:53,030 --> 00:09:51,040 it's where they get 246 00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:53,040 recent celebrities or people of note of 247 00:09:55,670 --> 00:09:54,240 recent times 248 00:09:57,990 --> 00:09:55,680 put them in the middle of the desert 249 00:09:58,550 --> 00:09:58,000 usually in or the jungle usually in 250 00:10:00,070 --> 00:09:58,560 africa 251 00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:00,080 and put them through all sorts of 252 00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:02,640 tortures and trials and 253 00:10:05,829 --> 00:10:04,000 things like that well this year the 254 00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:05,839 whole series is being filmed right here 255 00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:07,600 in australia for i guess you would have 256 00:10:11,269 --> 00:10:09,120 to say obvious reasons 257 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:11,279 anyway pete evans was lined up to be one 258 00:10:16,069 --> 00:10:12,880 of the stars on the show 259 00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:16,079 but he's been dumped from that show 260 00:10:20,389 --> 00:10:18,959 and also this article points out that a 261 00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:20,399 lot of his sponsors 262 00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:23,760 have been deserting him and rightly so 263 00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:26,880 things like retail outlets uh big w 264 00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:28,640 for example the demix bookstore 265 00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:30,240 woolworth supermarkets 266 00:10:34,710 --> 00:10:32,800 house which is a place you would buy uh 267 00:10:37,350 --> 00:10:34,720 kitchen utilities and things like that 268 00:10:38,710 --> 00:10:37,360 coal supermarket cooking brands have 269 00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:38,720 dumped him 270 00:10:45,269 --> 00:10:42,880 uh so it's been a very 271 00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:45,279 quick in one respect a quick downfall 272 00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:47,839 for pete evans over the last week or so 273 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:49,519 but over the longer period he has been 274 00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:51,040 spouting this sort of 275 00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:54,320 conspiracy theory and frankly 276 00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:57,360 woowoo alternative medicine for some 277 00:11:02,150 --> 00:10:58,399 time 278 00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:02,160 the uh bio machine with the flashing 279 00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,640 lights 280 00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:04,800 which cost thousands upon thousands of 281 00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:05,920 dollars was just 282 00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:08,800 one example of this now the very latest 283 00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:10,399 that's come to hand as i record this on 284 00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,160 saturday the uh 285 00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:14,800 the 21st of november there's a news 286 00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:17,839 report come up here on news.com 287 00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:19,760 time to say goodbye controversial 288 00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:20,959 celebrity chef 289 00:11:24,069 --> 00:11:23,440 turned conspiracy theorist pete evans 290 00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:24,079 quits 291 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:27,600 facebook now that's interesting so he's 292 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:29,040 more or less come out saying that he's 293 00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:31,600 going to quit facebook 294 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:34,720 uh i wonder if that's going to be true 295 00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:37,360 but largely i think pete evans big 296 00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:38,000 problems 297 00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:41,519 came when he posted that neo-nazi sign 298 00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,800 on his social media now you can get away 299 00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:46,320 with a lot when you're a celebrity you 300 00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:48,880 can make outrageous health claims 301 00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:50,959 which put people's lives in danger quite 302 00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:52,560 frankly 303 00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:54,639 it's one thing that when you start 304 00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:56,480 posting neo-nazi 305 00:12:03,350 --> 00:11:59,839 symbols on conspiracy theories like that 306 00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:03,360 then i guess that must be a line in the 307 00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,200 sand for a lot of people 308 00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:07,920 anyway i will link to some of these uh 309 00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:10,160 articles in this week's show notes 310 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:11,920 i don't think we've seen the last of 311 00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:13,600 pete evans he has a large 312 00:12:22,829 --> 00:12:18,260 fan base but uh well that remains to be 313 00:12:25,650 --> 00:12:22,839 [Music] 314 00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:25,660 seen 315 00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:32,870 hi there i'm abhijeet and i host the 316 00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:36,480 rationable podcast on berationable.com 317 00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:38,480 every couple of weeks i science the hell 318 00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:40,000 out of alternative medicines 319 00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:42,560 health and nutrition fads social media 320 00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:43,519 forwards 321 00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:46,800 science news and lots more of course 322 00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,200 you can find all of my articles podcast 323 00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:51,120 episodes and lots more 324 00:13:00,510 --> 00:12:55,360 on www.berationable.com 325 00:13:04,839 --> 00:13:04,829 [Music] 326 00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:06,540 rationable 327 00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:18,839 [Music] 328 00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:25,610 logical fallacies 329 00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:29,120 [Music] 330 00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:31,920 what are logical fallacies and why is it 331 00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:33,680 important that critical thinkers should 332 00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:34,000 know 333 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:38,079 about them a logical fallacy is an 334 00:13:42,949 --> 00:13:40,800 error we can make in reasoning but it 335 00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:42,959 usually crops up when we are discussing 336 00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:48,790 some people might even knowingly use 337 00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:51,120 them to try and score cheap points in an 338 00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,000 argument 339 00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:55,279 due to intellectual laziness 340 00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:57,839 they are traps we can fall into but if 341 00:14:01,670 --> 00:13:59,600 we know what to look out for 342 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:01,680 we can spot them when they occur and 343 00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:05,350 stop ourselves from using them 344 00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:06,639 [Music] 345 00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:08,959 this time we'll look at the fallacy 346 00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:10,560 fallacy 347 00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:16,800 this is when because your opponent uses 348 00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:18,079 logical fallacies 349 00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:21,360 you assume their main argument or point 350 00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:25,519 must therefore also be wrong 351 00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:27,839 winning your argument due to the errors 352 00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:29,600 made by your opponent 353 00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:31,519 might be a little like winning the 354 00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,320 battle but losing the war 355 00:14:37,350 --> 00:14:36,399 not everyone is good at putting their 356 00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:37,360 case 357 00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:40,800 even if their main point is true 358 00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:42,720 my friend was trying to convince me that 359 00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,959 nasa really did send astronauts to the 360 00:14:50,949 --> 00:14:47,120 moon in 1969 361 00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:50,959 but her arguments really didn't stack up 362 00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:52,959 telling me it's true because everybody 363 00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:54,160 knows it's true is 364 00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,720 like a cop-out to me no reason then for 365 00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:58,079 me to change my mind 366 00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:01,040 i think it was all faked that nasa sent 367 00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:03,360 astronauts to the moon in the 60s and 368 00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:04,480 70s 369 00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,279 is an historical fact but it can be 370 00:15:11,269 --> 00:15:09,839 difficult to argue the case if you don't 371 00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:11,279 know the many many 372 00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:14,959 details of the subject it's very easy to 373 00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:16,720 get flustered and make bad 374 00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:20,000 arguments even though in the end your 375 00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:22,480 main point is correct 376 00:15:28,389 --> 00:15:26,079 i had a choice between two treatments 377 00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:28,399 one was considered natural and the other 378 00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:29,600 was considered 379 00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:32,240 artificial i went for the artificial 380 00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:33,040 treatment 381 00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:35,839 as i know about the appeal to nature 382 00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,440 fallacy 383 00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:39,360 while much that is found in nature is 384 00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:40,560 toxic 385 00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:43,360 that alone is no reason to reject a 386 00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:44,639 treatment 387 00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:47,120 you need to look at the evidence behind 388 00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:48,240 any treatment 389 00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:51,040 whether from nature or from a lab to 390 00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:53,440 support your choices 391 00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:56,639 my friend who believes in evolution told 392 00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:56,959 me 393 00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:59,920 that it was all the scientists who also 394 00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:01,519 believe in evolution that 395 00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:04,480 finally convinced him but as i listened 396 00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:06,639 to the logical fallacy segment on the 397 00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:08,560 skeptic zone podcast 398 00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:11,600 i know that this is just the appeal to 399 00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:12,480 authority 400 00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:14,720 fallacy he'll have to do better than 401 00:16:18,389 --> 00:16:16,720 that to convince me 402 00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,399 while it's great that this person is 403 00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:20,959 learning about logical fallacies 404 00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:23,440 maybe they'll also come to understand 405 00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:25,600 that arguments and ideas can be 406 00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:28,639 quite involved and complex and need much 407 00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,160 more engagement than just 408 00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:32,399 pointing out logical fallacies along the 409 00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:33,759 way 410 00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:36,720 in this case the consensus of scientific 411 00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,440 opinion 412 00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:39,600 is being confused with an appeal to 413 00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:45,509 while it might be easy to score points 414 00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:48,320 based on your opponent's poor arguments 415 00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:51,759 try to bear in mind that in the end 416 00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:54,160 you are both hopefully trying to get to 417 00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:55,600 the truth 418 00:17:02,870 --> 00:16:59,279 if something is true and real it is true 419 00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:02,880 and real regardless of how well or how 420 00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:11,990 knowing a logical fallacy when you hear 421 00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:12,959 one and 422 00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:15,679 even knowing its name is important when 423 00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:18,240 arguing your point of view 424 00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:21,600 however you may come across as arrogant 425 00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:24,079 and not get very far if you call it out 426 00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:24,880 by name 427 00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,199 to your opponent when you hear it being 428 00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:29,280 used 429 00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:31,840 if your opponent calls you out for using 430 00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,640 one 431 00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:34,880 it's time to stop and think about how 432 00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:37,919 you are making your case 433 00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:40,080 use your knowledge of logical fallacies 434 00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:41,280 wisely 435 00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:44,000 and remember that even if your point of 436 00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,280 view is right 437 00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:47,520 and you know all the pitfalls in arguing 438 00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:48,880 your case 439 00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:51,360 it doesn't always mean you'll win on the 440 00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:52,480 day 441 00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:55,840 and as skeptics we must also remember 442 00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:01,440 that we too can be wrong at times 443 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:03,200 i'm michelle bickersma from the vic 444 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:15,050 skeptics thanks for listening 445 00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:22,480 [Music] 446 00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:24,240 this is kyle from the data skeptic 447 00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:27,200 podcast if you're curious about the way 448 00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:29,360 data is changing our world topics like 449 00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:30,240 ai and 450 00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:32,080 all this craziness with facebook and 451 00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:34,160 bots and the twitter storm and 452 00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:36,000 how the algorithms that underline that 453 00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:38,080 work and you don't want a technical deep 454 00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:39,280 dive you want it 455 00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:40,559 in the vernacular in a way that people 456 00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:42,240 can understand check us out at data 457 00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:43,840 skeptic that's what we try and do 458 00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:45,919 i interview advanced professionals in 459 00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:47,600 the field who do this sort of research 460 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:48,080 and then 461 00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:51,310 i get into interesting projects as well 462 00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:52,960 [Music] 463 00:18:56,110 --> 00:18:54,720 we're a weekly show and you can find us 464 00:19:17,430 --> 00:18:56,120 at datasceptic.com 465 00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:20,150 in the past week news has come to us of 466 00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:20,960 our friend 467 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:25,360 dr ken harvey a long time campaigner for 468 00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:28,960 common sense in science and medicine 469 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,960 and a equally fearsome campaigner when 470 00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:34,480 it comes to 471 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:38,000 quackery woo things masquerading 472 00:19:42,590 --> 00:19:40,480 as medicine can harvey has been 473 00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:42,600 associated with the therapeutics goods 474 00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,320 administration 475 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:46,559 but this news item has come our way 476 00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:49,440 dated the 16th of november 2020 477 00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:53,919 by liam mannix top doctor resigns tga 478 00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,320 role 479 00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:56,720 after concerns with policing of fringe 480 00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:02,549 a leading medical campaigner has 481 00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:04,640 resigned from the medical watchdogs 482 00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:06,480 advertising committee 483 00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:09,520 citing years of frustration over its 484 00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:12,240 kid glove treatment of complementary 485 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:13,360 medicines 486 00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:15,440 the therapeutic goods administration 487 00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:21,919 received 1468 complaints in 2018-19 488 00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:23,840 about advertisements for drugs and 489 00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:25,039 devices 490 00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:28,799 many of them alleging herbal supplements 491 00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:31,520 fat burners and hangover cures were 492 00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:32,559 being sold with 493 00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:35,120 wild and unsupported claims about their 494 00:20:38,230 --> 00:20:36,320 effectiveness 495 00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:38,240 nearly all the complaints were upheld 496 00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:40,480 but despite having the power to issue 497 00:20:44,789 --> 00:20:43,520 penalties in most cases the tga opted to 498 00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:44,799 send only 499 00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:47,679 an advisory letter according to a study 500 00:20:50,630 --> 00:20:48,000 led 501 00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:50,640 by associate professor ken harvey and 502 00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:52,080 published in the australian health 503 00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:53,200 review 504 00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,080 in 2018 federal minister greg hunt 505 00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:58,799 appointed dr harvey as a representative 506 00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:01,440 of consumer organization and magazine 507 00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:04,720 choice to the tga's advertising 508 00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:07,440 consultative committee a panel of 509 00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:08,080 industry 510 00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:10,400 media and consumer representatives who 511 00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:11,120 work 512 00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:14,960 with it on advertising compliance 513 00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:17,280 before that dr harvey who is a choice 514 00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,240 life member 515 00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,240 spent several years on the therapeutics 516 00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:22,320 goods advertising complaint resolution 517 00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:23,120 panel 518 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,880 i have come to the conclusion that i 519 00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:26,320 have been wasting 520 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:30,480 my and choices time dr harvey said 521 00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:33,600 the tga is not going to fix the problem 522 00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:34,720 of advertising 523 00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:37,200 until there is changes either at the top 524 00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:38,320 of the tga 525 00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:41,120 or at government level dr harvey said 526 00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,159 the tga 527 00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:45,600 which is funded by industry has grown 528 00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:47,919 too close to those it was supposed to 529 00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:48,880 regulate 530 00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:51,520 complementary medicines are a profitable 531 00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:53,919 export orientated industry 532 00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:55,919 but it's export orientated because it's 533 00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:57,600 producing 534 00:22:01,830 --> 00:21:59,679 sooner or later even the chinese are 535 00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:01,840 going to want products that work 536 00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:04,960 he said professor harvey personally 537 00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:08,000 complained about a quote clinically 538 00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:08,640 proven 539 00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:12,320 end quote hangover relief pill in 2018 540 00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,360 citing a lack of published evidence that 541 00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:17,760 worked the tga resolved professor 542 00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:19,760 harvey's complaint about the product 543 00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:23,520 by sending quote educational material 544 00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:27,200 in quote to the manufacturer who the tga 545 00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,159 said then made quote substantial changes 546 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,159 and quote to its advertising 547 00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:34,960 a spokeswoman for choice said it was 548 00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:36,880 considering whether to nominate a new 549 00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:37,760 representative 550 00:22:43,029 --> 00:22:41,360 or resign altogether we take dr harvey's 551 00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,039 concerns very seriously 552 00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:45,679 she said the tga rejected any 553 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:48,559 suggestions that dr harvey's resignation 554 00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:51,760 was a sign its regulation was failing it 555 00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:52,960 pointed to 556 00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:54,480 hundred and sixteen thousand three 557 00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:56,320 hundred and twenty dollars in fines 558 00:23:03,110 --> 00:22:59,919 handed out over dodgy covet 19 559 00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:03,120 ads the tga is committed to 560 00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:05,200 protecting consumers through the 561 00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:07,200 regulation of its advertising for health 562 00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:09,039 products and there is a large amount of 563 00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:10,480 information to demonstrate 564 00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:13,440 that it is achieving its objective the 565 00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:15,520 spokesman said 566 00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:18,320 but many products remain for sale 567 00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:19,039 despite 568 00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:23,039 upheld complaint dr harvey said 569 00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:26,960 one such case is the pain eraser 570 00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:30,000 which claims to kill pain with tiny 571 00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:33,440 electric pulses the product won a choice 572 00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:36,799 shonky award for duvious pain relief 573 00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:38,240 claims 574 00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:40,240 the report goes on to say in australia 575 00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:41,760 complementary medicines 576 00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:43,919 which include chinese herbs and 577 00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:45,039 probiotics 578 00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:48,640 are regulated by the tga but the tga 579 00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:49,440 does not 580 00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:51,919 test or review the evidence behind a 581 00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:53,360 product's claims 582 00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:55,600 which can allow dodgy products to the 583 00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:56,880 market 584 00:24:01,590 --> 00:23:59,760 and this is what we've found over many 585 00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:01,600 many many years 586 00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:03,600 especially if you walk into a pharmacy 587 00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:06,000 you can find shelves full of products 588 00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,080 that simply 589 00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:11,200 probably don't work and the giveaway 590 00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:12,640 next time you're in a camera shop here 591 00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:13,440 in australia 592 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:17,039 a pharmacy shop have a look at the 593 00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:20,080 labeling on what's being sold if it says 594 00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:23,520 if there's a number beginning with a ust 595 00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:26,080 with the letter r after it that means 596 00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:28,159 it's been registered it's been 597 00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:32,320 proven to work if it has an l so a ustl 598 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:36,559 aust l and a number it means it's listed 599 00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:40,400 and it might work 600 00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:43,760 it might not work the regulation is 601 00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:45,360 pretty watery 602 00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:47,679 and now published on the 15th of 603 00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:49,200 november 604 00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:51,919 from ken harvey himself review of the 605 00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:55,520 therapeutic goods advertising framework 606 00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:57,279 and i'll link to this in the show notes 607 00:25:01,350 --> 00:24:59,279 but the conclusion is 608 00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:01,360 as the choice representative on the 609 00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,360 former complaints resolution panel and 610 00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:06,000 the therapeutics advertising code 611 00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:08,400 council and more recently the 612 00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:10,480 therapeutics goods advertising 613 00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,310 i had tried to encourage the tga to 614 00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:20,640 focus more on consumer protection 615 00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:23,760 and less on industry assistance 616 00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:26,960 however like others i have concluded 617 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:27,440 that 618 00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,760 given its current leadership the tga 619 00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,520 will not change 620 00:25:35,870 --> 00:25:33,360 i have now resigned as the choice 621 00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:35,880 representative of the 622 00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:38,320 tgacc 623 00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:40,720 now having seen dr ken harvey on the 624 00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:42,480 recent medical panel at the 625 00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:45,840 skepticon earlier this month 626 00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:48,000 on the gold coast or broadcast from the 627 00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:49,440 gold coast 628 00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:52,640 it's easy to see his frustration 629 00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:54,720 and as i say for many years and you can 630 00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,240 see this in the pages of the skeptic 631 00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:57,840 magazine over the years 632 00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:59,679 there are aspects of the administration 633 00:26:03,190 --> 00:26:01,120 the therapeutic goods administration 634 00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:03,200 which leave a lot to be desired 635 00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:04,960 again the fact that you can walk into 636 00:26:09,269 --> 00:26:07,279 any pharmacy here in australia 637 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:09,279 and see the shelves full of utter 638 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:11,850 nonsense 639 00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:27,590 [Music] 640 00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:29,990 hi this is rob palmer i write the 641 00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:31,200 well-known skeptic 642 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:34,240 column in skeptical inquirer online and 643 00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:35,600 i'm a team member of the guerrilla 644 00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:37,679 skeptics and wikipedia project 645 00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:40,880 gsow but you find folks may know me 646 00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:42,480 because i contributed segments for 647 00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:43,600 several episodes 648 00:26:48,149 --> 00:26:46,480 of this podcast check out my interviews 649 00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:48,159 from cycon 2019 650 00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:51,440 starting with episode 576 651 00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:53,840 so here's a little known fact all of my 652 00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:55,600 skeptical activism stems from 653 00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:57,760 discovering the skeptic zone 654 00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:01,200 yep i first heard of the gsow project 655 00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,520 right here back in 2012 due to richard's 656 00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,039 selfless support of it 657 00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:06,720 other skeptical activities around the 658 00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:09,279 world i can honestly say 659 00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:11,120 i'd likely still be a skeptical couch 660 00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:13,360 potato if i hadn't discovered this 661 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:15,039 podcast 662 00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:17,200 so besides giving back to the zone by 663 00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:19,360 contributing occasional segments 664 00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:21,120 i contribute to the success of the show 665 00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,679 with ongoing monthly micropayments 666 00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:25,760 and i'm asking you to consider doing the 667 00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:26,799 same 668 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:28,799 you can do that by following the patreon 669 00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:30,000 or paypal links 670 00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:33,360 at skepticzone.tv every donation 671 00:27:48,010 --> 00:27:34,559 supports the show 672 00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:48,020 and richard will really appreciate it 673 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,279 [Music] 674 00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:03,600 now it's time to look at the latest 675 00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:05,600 issue of the newsletter from australian 676 00:28:12,389 --> 00:28:08,200 skeptics newsletter 111 677 00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:12,399 111 compiled by tim mendom 678 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:16,240 and it says hi all last issue we ask 679 00:28:20,389 --> 00:28:19,360 which particular form of psychic animal 680 00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:20,399 would get the us 681 00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,360 presidential election right well 682 00:28:25,669 --> 00:28:25,200 obviously there's still some grumbling 683 00:28:29,269 --> 00:28:25,679 in the 684 00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:29,279 pet psychic circles so far muscles 685 00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:32,640 the mystic crocodile looks good 686 00:28:35,770 --> 00:28:34,960 chris chris the squirrel has probably 687 00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:35,780 lost his nuts 688 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:37,039 [Music] 689 00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:40,159 okay it's the silly season soon so we're 690 00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,360 getting ready 691 00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:44,240 meanwhile there's always chiropractors 692 00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:46,240 to darken up your day 693 00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:48,880 read on and the first item says 694 00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:51,440 skepticon presentations available 695 00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:54,000 skepticon 2020 was a great success with 696 00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:55,760 an extremely high standard of 697 00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:57,039 presentations 698 00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:58,720 congratulations to the gold coast 699 00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:01,520 skeptics for doing a sterling job 700 00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:03,120 and if you've missed it you can still 701 00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:04,720 buy tickets and see all the 702 00:29:09,029 --> 00:29:05,919 presentations 703 00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:09,039 at your own speed they will be available 704 00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:11,440 online for another year 705 00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:13,919 and of course that's skepticon.org dot a 706 00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:14,960 u 707 00:29:21,669 --> 00:29:18,080 roasts 708 00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:21,679 pete evans over new covert 19 comments 709 00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:24,720 melbourne doctor virum sharma who won 710 00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:25,600 the skeptics 711 00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:27,840 thornette award for the promotion of 712 00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:30,240 reason has lashed out at celebrity chef 713 00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:32,640 and coronavirus conspiracy theorist pete 714 00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:33,279 evans 715 00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:36,000 over his latest comments it came after 716 00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:38,880 evans suggested the virus didn't exist 717 00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,080 and you can't transmit it sharma 718 00:29:47,110 --> 00:29:44,320 described evans as a 719 00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:47,120 effing idiot that's what it says here or 720 00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:49,200 words to that effect 721 00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:51,600 here we have another story bizarre 722 00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:53,840 publishing ring that linked 5g to 723 00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:55,520 coronavirus 724 00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:58,000 from black holes at the earth's center 725 00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,480 to decapitated quails 726 00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:02,880 an international group of scientists 727 00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,880 some working for a journal from a major 728 00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:06,000 publisher 729 00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:07,840 are prolifically publishing 730 00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:09,360 pseudoscience 731 00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:11,440 the scientists some seemingly well 732 00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:12,399 credentialed 733 00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:14,720 have been publishing in obscure 734 00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:16,399 scientific journals 735 00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:19,120 accruing hundreds of co-authorships over 736 00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:19,760 the past 737 00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:22,399 several years the only problem most of 738 00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:23,600 the studies they publish 739 00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:26,880 don't make any sense can 740 00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:30,240 neck manipulation cause a stroke article 741 00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:31,520 on signs that a patient 742 00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:33,679 might have been damaged in chiropractic 743 00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:35,360 manipulation 744 00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:38,799 useful checklist to have in an emergency 745 00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:42,480 note that it is from a law firm 746 00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,200 so they do have an interest in taking 747 00:30:49,669 --> 00:30:47,120 legal action 748 00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:49,679 and don't forget all these uh little 749 00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:51,279 snippets are accompanied by 750 00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:54,320 links you can press in your newsletter 751 00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:55,039 when you 752 00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:56,799 collect that in your email to see the 753 00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:58,080 full story 754 00:31:03,110 --> 00:31:01,679 informed consent duty of disclosure and 755 00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:03,120 chiropractic 756 00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:04,880 a paper from murdoch university 757 00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:06,799 researchers that looks at 758 00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:10,399 the emergence of unsubstantiated claims 759 00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:12,480 by vertebral subluxation based 760 00:31:15,909 --> 00:31:13,600 chiropractors 761 00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:15,919 that spinal manipulation therapy has a 762 00:31:23,029 --> 00:31:18,240 role to play in prevention 763 00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:23,039 by enhancing the body's immune function 764 00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:26,320 these claims are quote unprofessional 765 00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:29,360 and demonstrate a disturbing lack 766 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:32,880 of insight into the doctrine of informed 767 00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:36,880 consent as such it is timely to review 768 00:31:41,269 --> 00:31:38,159 how informed 769 00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:41,279 consent has evolved and continues to do 770 00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:42,080 so 771 00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:47,440 implications for complementary health 772 00:31:53,669 --> 00:31:50,640 practitioner practice end quote covert 773 00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:53,679 19 misinformation on social media 774 00:31:57,509 --> 00:31:56,399 first draft has released research that 775 00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:57,519 identified 776 00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:00,480 quote dominant vaccine narratives on 777 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:02,480 social media platforms in english 778 00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:04,720 french and spanish online communities 779 00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:05,840 end quote 780 00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:08,080 which could erode public trust in a 781 00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:09,919 covert 19 vaccine 782 00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:12,960 and vaccines more generally 783 00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:15,600 documentary on the effectiveness and 784 00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:16,640 that's in quotes 785 00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:20,159 of conversion therapy for the record 786 00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:24,000 a new documentary titled quote censored 787 00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:26,559 and quote has come out promoting 788 00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:27,519 so-called 789 00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,720 gay conversion therapy 790 00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:33,200 conversion therapy is promoted by 791 00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:34,799 religious conservatives 792 00:32:40,029 --> 00:32:37,760 in an attempt to prove that their god 793 00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:40,039 did not create 794 00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:42,480 lgbtq people 795 00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:45,279 it is then used to assert that sexual 796 00:32:49,350 --> 00:32:46,159 orientation 797 00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:49,360 is a choice and as a choice it is not 798 00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:50,960 deserving of protection 799 00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:54,240 through non-discrimination laws 800 00:32:57,430 --> 00:32:57,120 this article pulls no punches on tearing 801 00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:57,440 it 802 00:33:03,909 --> 00:33:02,870 the december 2020 issue of the skeptic 803 00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:03,919 magazine 804 00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:06,000 will still be hitting the streets it 805 00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:07,760 includes a major feature on 806 00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:11,279 when good scientists go bad and even 807 00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:11,760 some 808 00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:14,480 bad scientists who go even better plus 809 00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:15,600 the usual panopy 810 00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:18,480 of interesting and weird the worrisome 811 00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:20,399 and the fun 812 00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:22,080 and of course you can subscribe to the 813 00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:27,669 and once you're there you can also 814 00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:29,840 contact tim via email 815 00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:33,519 with any stories you might put his way 816 00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:36,399 any suggestions for stories 817 00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:38,960 and lastly we have events coming up 818 00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:41,360 including on the 3rd of december sydney 819 00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:42,559 skeptics in the pub 820 00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:44,640 with mandy lenoble one of the reporters 821 00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:45,919 here on the skeptic zone 822 00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:48,960 and skeptic of the year and on december 823 00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:51,360 the 21st it's associate professor paul 824 00:33:55,990 --> 00:33:52,559 willis 825 00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:56,000 vic skeptics cafe recent highlights of 826 00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:56,880 australian 827 00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,440 paleontology and right at the end 828 00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:01,600 something to round off the newsletter 829 00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:04,799 items of interest largest online seance 830 00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:06,480 sets world record 831 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:08,399 a guinness world record for the world's 832 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:10,720 largest online seance 833 00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:13,760 by which they mean the most people 834 00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:16,879 not actually a large seance has been set 835 00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:18,720 at one of the historic 836 00:34:25,909 --> 00:34:22,320 properties in warwick united kingdom 837 00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:25,919 uk haunted and a wiccan witch 838 00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:28,240 used a fifth century site owned by the 839 00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:29,440 freemasons 840 00:34:35,109 --> 00:34:32,560 for the setting for tv channel really's 841 00:34:36,629 --> 00:34:35,119 guinness world record attempt the team 842 00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:36,639 at really 843 00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:39,679 said the seance topped more than 844 00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:42,720 9 000 live viewers smashing 845 00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:44,960 the viewing figures needed to enter the 846 00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:45,760 record 847 00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,040 by over five times the channel says it 848 00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:51,440 now holds the guinness world record 849 00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:52,560 title 850 00:34:57,349 --> 00:34:55,919 for quote most viewers for a seance live 851 00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:57,359 stream on facebook 852 00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:01,040 end quote a record that you were 853 00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,240 no doubt waiting with baited breath 854 00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:07,680 to see broken next week the most 855 00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,720 odd box named bob gathered in a small 856 00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:12,400 field in upper volta 857 00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:16,800 on a monday afternoon 858 00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:18,160 and that's just some of the highlights 859 00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:19,839 from the latest issue of the australian 860 00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:21,359 skeptics newsletter 861 00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:24,720 newsletter number 111 and you can have 862 00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:26,640 that delivered into your inbox 863 00:35:34,180 --> 00:35:29,040 every other week by subscribing at 864 00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:45,109 [Music] 865 00:35:48,790 --> 00:35:47,430 hey fellow skeptics ben radford here 866 00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:48,800 with celestia ward 867 00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:50,240 your friendly host of squaring the 868 00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:52,640 strange a podcast that looks at topics 869 00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:53,920 ranging from legends 870 00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:56,400 panics and cryptids to media myths 871 00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:57,680 psychology and folklore 872 00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:59,520 breaking things down and picking things 873 00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:01,440 apart as we skeptics do 874 00:36:05,829 --> 00:36:03,359 we bring a few different perspectives on 875 00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:05,839 things celestia for example is a witty 876 00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:06,640 cartoonist 877 00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,400 and ben is a brilliant writer and long 878 00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:10,079 time skeptical investigator 879 00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:12,000 we don't always agree but we have fun 880 00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,079 trying and we learn new things 881 00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:16,560 join us for new topics every week or two 882 00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:18,640 or browse our backlog of evergreen 883 00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:19,520 episodes 884 00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:22,480 available on itunes and all your podcast 885 00:36:30,670 --> 00:36:23,599 feeding troughs 886 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:38,829 [Music] 887 00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:40,770 bye-bye 888 00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,829 now let's dive once more into the 889 00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:47,440 treasure trove of information 890 00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:51,839 that's trove trove.nla.gov.iu an online 891 00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:54,079 resource of magazines newspapers and so 892 00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:54,960 on 893 00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:58,560 from australian history searchable 894 00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:01,280 now following on from the last adventure 895 00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:03,440 we took into the pages of 896 00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:06,320 all these magazines and news items we 897 00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:08,480 have one more here i didn't get to about 898 00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:10,800 the australian skeptics which 899 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:13,520 features or talks about our very own tim 900 00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:14,320 mendom 901 00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,000 but this is from 1988. the tribune 902 00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,480 or tribune newspaper or magazine i'm not 903 00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:22,240 sure exactly what that was 904 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:26,560 it says here from 1939 to 1991 905 00:37:38,069 --> 00:37:34,630 [Music] 906 00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:38,079 in the magazine section it says skeptics 907 00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:39,119 challenge 908 00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,710 if you're tired of the constant stream 909 00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:50,000 of charlatans who grab 910 00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,000 public attention with claims of psychic 911 00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:54,640 powers clairvoyance or some special 912 00:37:59,109 --> 00:37:56,720 relationship with the supreme 913 00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:59,119 being you'll be pleased to hear of the 914 00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,640 australian skeptics 915 00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:02,400 in fact you may have already heard of 916 00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:04,800 the skeptics having a go 917 00:38:11,109 --> 00:38:08,000 at astrology water divining the 100th 918 00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:11,119 monkey ufos some brands of alternative 919 00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:11,680 medicine 920 00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:13,599 or many of the weird and wonderful 921 00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,079 claims made by religious groups 922 00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:18,560 for an organization that started in 1980 923 00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:20,480 by people like philip adams and dick 924 00:38:23,310 --> 00:38:21,599 smith 925 00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:23,320 lighthearted ridicule of the 926 00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:25,040 pseudoscientific 927 00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:28,880 might be expected but says the skeptic's 928 00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:31,040 national secretary tim mendenham 929 00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:34,320 we have a very serious side the skeptics 930 00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:36,000 do not automatically dismiss 931 00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:38,160 ideas which challenge the prevailing 932 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:39,520 scientific view 933 00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:42,320 of how the world works mendem told the 934 00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:43,040 tribune 935 00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,160 that they seek out concrete claims 936 00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,400 which can be subjected to real 937 00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:50,000 scientific testing 938 00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:52,640 for instance the skeptics prefer to 939 00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:53,119 study 940 00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:55,680 actual claims of religious groups like 941 00:39:00,069 --> 00:38:57,200 the shroud of turin 942 00:39:00,710 --> 00:39:00,079 or weeping statues rather than engage in 943 00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:00,720 abstract 944 00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:03,920 philosophical argument about whether 945 00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:07,200 there is or isn't a god although they 946 00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,119 do remain well skeptical 947 00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:13,359 tim menden believes the very dominance 948 00:39:18,829 --> 00:39:15,680 of science and technology in our lives 949 00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:18,839 has led to a renewed interest in the 950 00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:20,320 pseudoscientific 951 00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:22,240 the skeptics represent no particular 952 00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:24,640 brand of political philosophy 953 00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:27,440 but an inclination to question has 954 00:39:30,910 --> 00:39:28,000 always been 955 00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:30,920 associated with progressive thought 956 00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,079 skepticism 957 00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:34,800 should not be equated with cynicism or 958 00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,720 an arrogant dismissal of anything which 959 00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:38,000 does not conform to 960 00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:41,200 conventional wisdom science itself only 961 00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:43,040 moves forward because it continually 962 00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:43,680 seeks 963 00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:46,720 out weaknesses in established 964 00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:49,839 fact and because ultimately 965 00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:52,640 it submits itself to objective testing 966 00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:53,920 in which others seek to 967 00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:56,960 reproduce its results while there are 968 00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:59,359 established procedures for doing this in 969 00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:01,200 the scientific world 970 00:40:04,349 --> 00:40:03,680 there is very little independent testing 971 00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,359 of the 972 00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,880 pseudoscientific world the skeptics try 973 00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:08,880 to fill the gap 974 00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,240 gut feelings in the case of alternative 975 00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,400 medicine the skeptics readily admit that 976 00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:16,800 traditional medicine has sometimes 977 00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:18,720 gleaned valuable knowledge from the 978 00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:20,240 non-traditional 979 00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,040 chiropractic acupuncture and work on 980 00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:25,440 dietary cures for some health problems 981 00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:27,920 are examples 982 00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:32,319 really some doctors now study these 983 00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:34,160 fields to supplement their traditional 984 00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:36,880 training nevertheless the skeptics 985 00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:38,800 suspect some types of alternative 986 00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:40,720 medicine because 987 00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:43,520 they rarely if ever publish statistical 988 00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,720 data 989 00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:46,400 they appeal to the patient's gut 990 00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:48,880 feelings says mendem 991 00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:51,280 given many people's experiences of 992 00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:52,480 traditional medicine 993 00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,400 as cold and distant from human feelings 994 00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,800 it's not surprising that some shonky 995 00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:01,440 healers do a roaring trade 996 00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:03,200 now just a quick aside for those people 997 00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:04,800 listening internationally 998 00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:07,520 and i've come across this before uh the 999 00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:07,920 word 1000 00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:10,400 shonky sometimes does not translate into 1001 00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:11,760 other cultures around the world 1002 00:41:17,510 --> 00:41:15,280 shonky means dodgy 1003 00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:17,520 not on the up and up um it could be a 1004 00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:18,880 bit of a con doesn't work 1005 00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,200 properly faulty that sort of thing 1006 00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:23,359 usually they diagnose an 1007 00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:26,480 inner malady the liver is a good one as 1008 00:41:30,309 --> 00:41:27,760 it's complex and 1009 00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,319 subtle functions make it difficult to 1010 00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:31,920 check with great certainty 1011 00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:35,280 or perhaps some general bodily malaise 1012 00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:38,000 equally good as it is impossible to pin 1013 00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:38,560 down to 1014 00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,079 specifics the cure tends to be harmless 1015 00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:44,800 maybe even beneficial if it works at all 1016 00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:47,440 it does so mainly as a placebo 1017 00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:49,680 a sugar-coated substitute for real 1018 00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:50,880 medication 1019 00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:53,200 a patient who has nothing wrong in the 1020 00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:55,040 strict physical sense yet 1021 00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:57,760 feels run down or depressed may be cured 1022 00:42:01,510 --> 00:41:58,720 in this way 1023 00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:01,520 if they really believe it in the same 1024 00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,160 way 1025 00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:04,160 not all pentecostals turn out to be like 1026 00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:05,599 jimmy swaggart 1027 00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:08,240 some are really born again and feel 1028 00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,240 genuinely invigorated 1029 00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:12,800 menden believes there's nothing very 1030 00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,640 wrong with this sort of thing 1031 00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:16,880 but you get extreme cases like the 1032 00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:19,359 jonestown massacre in guyana 1033 00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:22,000 jim jones staged various displays of 1034 00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:24,640 supernatural powers to get people in 1035 00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:27,599 or the case not so long ago of an 1036 00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:30,160 australian boy who had a cold his 1037 00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:30,720 parents 1038 00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:33,760 put him on a water diet for 60 days he 1039 00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:34,880 died 1040 00:42:39,589 --> 00:42:37,119 this points out perhaps the greatest and 1041 00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:39,599 oldest danger of the pseudoscientific 1042 00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:42,640 and outright superstitious 1043 00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:44,800 they blind people to the very problems 1044 00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:46,000 that require 1045 00:42:49,990 --> 00:42:49,280 very real human solutions in a world 1046 00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:50,000 faced with 1047 00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:52,800 nuclear extinction and planet-wide 1048 00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:54,160 population 1049 00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:57,599 it's comforting to believe that god ufos 1050 00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:58,720 or something else is 1051 00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:01,920 watching over us comforting but it does 1052 00:43:07,109 --> 00:43:04,640 nothing to solve the problems 1053 00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:07,119 probably the best advice mendem gives 1054 00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,880 about claims of the supernatural the 1055 00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:10,560 paranormal is to 1056 00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:12,800 treat them as you would the claims of 1057 00:43:16,870 --> 00:43:13,599 someone 1058 00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:16,880 who was trying to sell you a used car 1059 00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:18,720 of course traditional science is not 1060 00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,480 without its rogues 1061 00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:22,480 neither does it fall outside the scope 1062 00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:23,760 of politics 1063 00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,480 the fact that nuclear weapons can be 1064 00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:28,800 built does not mean that their use is 1065 00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:32,480 inevitable similarly the scientific 1066 00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:34,640 discoveries in the field of genetics do 1067 00:43:40,309 --> 00:43:37,040 not automatically prove that some 1068 00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,319 radical types are superior to others 1069 00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:42,160 these are matters for more moral and 1070 00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:43,440 political judgments 1071 00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:46,480 which cannot be made with slide rule or 1072 00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:47,599 calculator 1073 00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:50,720 perhaps having purchased our car 1074 00:43:55,930 --> 00:43:53,760 we should take care who drives it 1075 00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:55,940 and where 1076 00:44:01,030 --> 00:43:58,800 [Music] 1077 00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:01,040 and that was skeptics challenge the 1078 00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:03,680 pseudo scientific published in tribune 1079 00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:06,800 in sydney on the 4th of may 1988 1080 00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:09,599 and according to wikipedia oh this is 1081 00:44:14,950 --> 00:44:12,160 interesting tribune australian newspaper 1082 00:44:17,510 --> 00:44:14,960 tribune was the official newspaper of 1083 00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:17,520 the communist party of australia 1084 00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,880 it was published by the central 1085 00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:20,560 committee of the communist party 1086 00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:24,560 of australia from 1939 to 1991 1087 00:44:29,349 --> 00:44:27,680 initially it was subtitled as tribune 1088 00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:29,359 the people's paper 1089 00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,800 it was also published as the queensland 1090 00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:34,400 guardian guardian melbourne 1091 00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:37,280 forward in sydney it had previously been 1092 00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:39,440 published as the australian communist 1093 00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:42,480 from 1920 to 2021 the communist from 1094 00:44:46,910 --> 00:44:44,560 1921 to 1923 1095 00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,920 and the workers weekly from 1923 to 1096 00:44:51,109 --> 00:44:48,400 1939. 1097 00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:51,119 well there you go seems that uh 1098 00:44:53,790 --> 00:44:52,400 skepticism can pop 1099 00:44:57,990 --> 00:44:53,800 up just about anywhere 1100 00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:59,910 but once again for all your communist 1101 00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:01,440 history 1102 00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:04,000 in australia and lots of other things 1103 00:45:08,470 --> 00:45:05,119 beside that 1104 00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:08,480 visit trove trove.nla.gov you put in 1105 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:10,560 your search 1106 00:45:21,890 --> 00:45:37,030 [Music] 1107 00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:38,550 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1108 00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:40,240 zone on next week's show i hope to bring 1109 00:45:45,990 --> 00:45:42,000 you an interview with 1110 00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:46,000 noted paranormal investigator and author 1111 00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:49,280 ben radford now ben has a new book 1112 00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:50,560 coming out 1113 00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,920 again come on ben give us a break 1114 00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,920 you put all of us to shame with all the 1115 00:45:59,510 --> 00:45:57,599 books you produce 1116 00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:59,520 we'll be hopefully chatting to ben about 1117 00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:00,880 his new book 1118 00:46:03,990 --> 00:46:02,880 also in the coming week i noticed that 1119 00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:04,000 the at 1120 00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:07,040 long last the australian museum here in 1121 00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:08,079 sydney 1122 00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:11,119 the uh cultural icon of science in 1123 00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:12,400 sydney 1124 00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,079 is reopening after after what 15 months 1125 00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:18,079 of renovation or something crazy like 1126 00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:18,800 that 1127 00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:21,040 and it's been a strange year for many 1128 00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:22,800 reasons one of the reasons for me 1129 00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:24,000 personally 1130 00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:27,040 is that every year for 1131 00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:30,560 well over a decade i and 1132 00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:35,599 maynard or dr rachie my friend ian bryce 1133 00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:37,599 and before that our friend linda would 1134 00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:39,520 perform at the australian museum 1135 00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,480 at science week for science week as the 1136 00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:44,640 mystery investigators troop where we do 1137 00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:46,160 live science shows for 1138 00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:49,920 the uh school kids who'd come in 1139 00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:51,839 based around claims of the paranormal 1140 00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,040 supernatural 1141 00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:54,960 fire walking bed of nails all that sort 1142 00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,200 of stuff in fact i've 1143 00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:59,040 reported on that on the skeptic zone 1144 00:47:02,790 --> 00:47:00,800 before 1145 00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:02,800 anyway no shows this year because of the 1146 00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:04,720 pandemic and because of the renovations 1147 00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:06,400 at the australian museum 1148 00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:09,520 so i've missed that very much very very 1149 00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:10,720 much 1150 00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:14,880 hopefully by science week next year 1151 00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:17,520 the mystery investigators will be back 1152 00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:20,000 better than ever 1153 00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:23,680 anyway later this week i will be uh 1154 00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:26,319 going to the museum to check out the new 1155 00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:28,319 renovations and if possible 1156 00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:32,720 i'll see if i can do a report on that 1157 00:47:38,309 --> 00:47:36,640 also on friday the 27th here in 1158 00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:38,319 sydney australia on the evening of 1159 00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:40,079 friday the 27th 1160 00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:43,040 you can use your time zone calculators 1161 00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:43,680 to 1162 00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:45,200 see what that means in your part of the 1163 00:47:50,230 --> 00:47:47,280 world uh maynard 1164 00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:50,240 will be doing another live quiz online 1165 00:47:54,069 --> 00:47:51,680 at facebook 1166 00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:54,079 if you want to join in that would be 1167 00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:56,240 great we can do live interactive chat 1168 00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:57,920 and you can answer the questions 1169 00:48:01,190 --> 00:48:00,640 and i'll be joining maynard for that uh 1170 00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:01,200 live 1171 00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:03,839 video quiz so that's friday night friday 1172 00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:05,119 evening here in 1173 00:48:11,109 --> 00:48:08,640 sydney australia check out maynard.com 1174 00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:11,119 dot a u for more details 1175 00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:14,880 and speaking about live quiz live trivia 1176 00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:17,119 i've been enjoying for many months now 1177 00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:18,160 the regular 1178 00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:21,359 for my time for my uh 1179 00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:24,800 place in the world it's friday friday's 1180 00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:26,559 now about 1 pm 1181 00:48:34,390 --> 00:48:30,720 uh susan gerbic's trivia quiz 1182 00:48:36,150 --> 00:48:34,400 via zoom and it's been just a 1183 00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:36,160 a wonderful thing to have during the 1184 00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:38,240 lockdown and these troubled times 1185 00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:40,000 to spend a couple of hours with friends 1186 00:48:43,109 --> 00:48:42,079 from all over the world to play trivia 1187 00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:43,119 with susan gerbic 1188 00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:47,359 thank you susan but for this week 1189 00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:49,359 this is richard saunders signing off 1190 00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:57,030 you've been listening to the skeptic 1191 00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:58,480 zone podcast 1192 00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:01,680 please visit our website at www dot 1193 00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:05,280 zone for show notes contacts 1194 00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:07,200 and to access the back catalog of 1195 00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:10,880 episodes going back to 2008. 1196 00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:12,800 you can follow the skeptic zone podcast 1197 00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:14,160 on twitter at 1198 00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:17,200 skepticzone visit our facebook page 1199 00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:20,720 or leave a review on itunes you can also 1200 00:49:25,349 --> 00:49:22,079 support the skeptic zone 1201 00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:25,359 via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone 1202 00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:26,079 podcast 1203 00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:28,960 is an independent production the views 1204 00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:29,680 and opinions 1205 00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:31,599 expressed on the skeptic zone are not 1206 00:49:51,829 --> 00:49:34,079 necessarily those of australian skeptics 1207 00:50:01,910 --> 00:49:54,230 hello to the afterthoughts i'm going to 1208 00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:03,349 because this is the relaxed part of the 1209 00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:05,440 show i don't care if the birds are 1210 00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:06,480 chirping outside 1211 00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:09,280 are they chirping oh yes there they go 1212 00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,680 so 1213 00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:11,200 this is for those people who don't know 1214 00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:13,040 this is if you keep listening to the 1215 00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,800 show after the music sometimes we play 1216 00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:16,000 the dice game 1217 00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:19,520 well i where i roll a die 1218 00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:21,599 in this case it's dice i've got two i've 1219 00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:24,079 got two d10s 1220 00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:26,079 all right bit different i'm gonna roll 1221 00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:27,599 them three times 1222 00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:30,640 and where's my here we go 1223 00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:33,760 just make sure i note all this down 1224 00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:41,910 dumb luck or whatever 1225 00:50:45,589 --> 00:50:44,000 you know you can always cheat you can 1226 00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:45,599 always listen to this and rewind it and 1227 00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:46,480 listen again and 1228 00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:48,880 get it right every time what numbers are 1229 00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:50,240 going to come up 1230 00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:53,599 so as there are two the numbers will be 1231 00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:58,000 from 1 to 100 1232 00:51:01,670 --> 00:51:00,640 this week so it could be 1 all the way 1233 00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:01,680 to 100 1234 00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:09,440 3 times here we go first number 1235 00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:15,119 is 68. 1236 00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,640 i think the bird outside the window got 1237 00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:18,319 that one right yeah 1238 00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:21,200 68 is the first number second number 1239 00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:22,800 have you got six 1240 00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:25,200 or eight well that's not too bad here we 1241 00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:27,359 go 1242 00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:37,680 the next one 1243 00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:46,069 it's not 55 i'm sorry susan it's 14. 1244 00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:50,160 so annoying numbers this week are 68 1245 00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:55,599 39 and 14 but just for susan 1246 00:52:02,829 --> 00:51:58,480 one more okay because there's no fives 1247 00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:05,510 susan